FEEDBACK FROM FRANCE:
Stefan Schulz steschu@gmail.com
Fr., 17. Apr., 11:25
an vianney, Nikiema, Fleur, Helmut, Sophie, DARMONI, Kokou, olivier.bodenreider
Hi Fleur, Vianney, Jean-Noel, Yvon, Olivier, and Stéfan,
@Helmut Dultinger , @Klopfenstein, Sophie Anne Ines (SNOMED CT translation group)
Let me approach you with a tricky SNOMED translation question, counting on your medical and terminological expertise. Helmut, Sophie and I are involved in SNOMED terminology translation, and we’ve had repeated discussions with colleagues from several countries within the SNOMED Translation User Group about the concepts Cellulitis, Phlegmon , and Erysipelas. The group disagrees whether Cellulitis and Phlegmon should be different disorder concepts.
In current SNOMED CT, there are disorder concepts for Cellulitis and Erysipelas but not for Phlegmon. Cellulitis has a very broad text definition. Erysipelas is under Cellulitis of Skin. In contrast, there are morphology concepts for Cellulitis and Phlegmon but not for Erysipelas.
“Phlegmon(e)” is frequent in German, Dutch and French, but less in English.
“Cellulitis” or “Zellulitis” is rarely used in German texts. In English, “Cellulitis” seems to be very common, much more than “Phlegmon”.
What is your opinion, according to your clinical and terminological experience and medical education?
Assuming
“Cellulitis” (E) = “cellulite” (F)
“Erysipelas” (E) = “érysipèle” (F)
“Phlegmon” (E) = “phlegmon” (F)
Would you agree that in French clinical and scientific discourse
“phlegmon” is narrower than “cellulite”, which would justify a separate SNOMED disorder concept? “phlegmon” would then be a child of “cellulite” and a sibling of “érysipèle”.
or that
“phlegmon” is increasingly being substituted by “cellulite”, following international trends and that two separate concepts are not necessary, and that “phlegmon” as a synonym of “cellulite” (“érysipèle” being a hyponym) better reflects current use of French clinical language?
Thanks in advance for your help, which is highly appreciated for consensus building in our group.
Stefan
--
Stefan Schulz
Univ.-Prof. Dr. med.
Institute for Medical lnformatics, Statistics and Documentation
Medical University of Graz, Auenbruggerplatz 2/5
A-8036 Graz, Austria
Tel: +43 316 385 16939 | +43 699 150 96 270
Email: stefan.schulz@medunigraz.at
Web: www.medunigraz.at/imi/ | purl.org/steschu
JOUHET Vianney über medunigraz.at
So., 19. Apr., 17:01
an Nikiema, Fleur, Helmut, Sophie, DARMONI, Kokou, olivier.bodenreider@gmail.com, Stefan
Hi Stefan,
In my opinion they are different concepts.
The cellulitis definition you provide from the snomed seems too broad to me because it should occur on the skin and subcutaneous tissus only (from my point of view). It can be complicated by a phlegmon thus involving deeper structure. But this assertion is not possible because then cellulitis and phlegmon would be siblings… So I won’t go that way!
However following the provided definition I would choose the subsuming proposition meaning that a phlegmon is a kind of cellulitis involving deeper structure (this does not mean that it has to involve skin or subcutaneous tissues overwise this wouldn’t be true).
So this one seems good to me : “phlegmon” is narrower than “cellulite”, which would justify a separate SNOMED disorder concept? “phlegmon” would then be a child of “cellulite” and a sibling of “érysipèle”.
Hope this can help
Vianney
Yvon Awuklu über medunigraz.at
Mo., 20. Apr., 05:35
an Vianney, jean, Fleur, DARMONI, olivier, Stefan, Helmut, Sophie
Hi Stefan,
In my view, phlegmon should be treated as a narrower concept than cellulite in French clinical practice, justifying a separate SNOMED disorder concept (i.e., phlegmon as a child of cellulite and a sibling of érysipèle).
The clinical distinction is meaningful: érysipèle refers to a superficial, well-demarcated infection, while phlegmon refers to a deeper, more diffuse infection of soft tissues with poorly defined borders.
Cellulite functions as the broader umbrella term covering both. These differences have clinical and therapeutic implications, which supports maintaining them as distinct concepts rather than collapsing them.
Regarding the second option — that phlegmon is increasingly being substituted by cellulite following international (primarily English-language) trends — I would be cautious about this.
While English-language literature heavily favors “cellulitis” and French practice is not immune to this influence, “phlegmon” remains a specific and commonly used term in French clinical and scientific discourse, although its use may vary depending on the clinical context. Replacing it with cellulite as a simple synonym would risk losing a clinically useful distinction that French-speaking practitioners still actively make. The ambiguity of “cellulite” in French (due to its widespread non-medical cosmetic usage) is an additional reason to preserve “phlegmon” as a precise, unambiguous clinical term.
Best regards,
Yvon