Clinical imprecision and when a grouper isn't a grouper

I’ve been troubled for a while by a view sometimes put forward to the effect that codes like “Amputation of finger” or “Trapped at scene of incident” are not required in SNOMED because, if entered into a patient record, they would clearly be medicolegally underspecified: surely you know exactly which fingers were amputated, and so both can and should use the available more detailed codes specific to each possible finger. The grouper isn’t needed .. and so we can conveniently excuse ourselves from worrying about what the term “finger” even means.

I was on a call earlier today that illustrated perfectly why this train of logic is not correct: in an emergency telephone triage setting, it is entirely sufficient to both only know and so to only record that the patient says they have chopped off an unspecified digit, in order to be able to progress rapidly to the next important triage question: how much blood are you losing? Indeed, it would actually be clinically counterproductive - even unsafe - to take the time at this point in the process to pin down and record exactly which fingers were and were not involved.

But the triaging clinician still needs to be able to record and exchange what they did know and establish, to the level of detail this was or was not requested, made available and clinically relevant. Thus, a code for “Amputation of finger” isn’t a grouper whose sole purpose is to support data extraction over populations. Its a perfectly valid primary data capture code at the level of an individual patient. Valid and clinically useable primary data capture does not - can not - only happen using the most detailed leaf nodes.

This also reminded me of an example put forward by Angelo Rossi Mori in the 90s, illustrating how the exact same surgical procedure would need to be coded with similarly variable precision at different stages of the patient journey. The clinic booking note might say “Reattachment of finger”. The Theatre Preparation system might change this to “Reattachment of amputated RIGHT finger” so that the surgical instrument table was placed on the correct side of the bed. And the post surgery note might be “Reattachment of partial amputation of right middle finger”. All are correct.

2 Likes

Hi Jeremy, this certainly shows why a grouper concept can be necessary. Different levels of detail can have their separate use cases and we should be careful before we remove a set of grouper concepts entirely.

In the finger/digit discussion though, we have two grouper concepts which, although distinct, are very close in meaning:

  1. digit of hand, i.e. digitus manus I, II, III, IV and/or V
  2. finger, which can be interpreted in different ways:
    1. By orthopedics, surgeons, most English clinicians (?) as digitus manus II, III, IV and/or V
    2. By patients, paramedical specialties (?) as digitus manus I, II, III, IV and/or V

So when a patient calls and says that someone has accidentally amputated a finger - are you even that certain it’s not a thumb? Will the triage act differently if it is a thumb? Or would the grouper concept for digit of hand, with a synonym of ‘finger and/or thumb’ support the use case just as well?

So to me, this discussion was not: do we need a grouper concept? But: do we need two grouper concepts whose meaning overlaps so strongly?

I think many, possibly most, anglophone patients would also interpret “finger” as exclusively II, III, IV or V ! Except when by convention we all tacitly understand from the wider context that I is also included.

As in (to a child): How many fingers do you have on each hand?
Correct Answer: Five

But also (to same child): Point to ANY of the fingers on your left hand
Wrong answer: child points at thumb.

So when a patient calls and says that someone has accidentally amputated a finger - are you even that certain it’s not a thumb?

Pretty much yes. If they’d amputated their thumb, they’d say so. If they had amputated I, II and III in the same accident, they would say “I’ve amputated my thumb and two fingers”. Reporting it as “I’ve amputated three fingers” would, I think, cause cognitive dissonance in the vast majority of native English patients and clinicians.

Personally, I think we do need two sets of concepts (including groupers) for the inclusive meaning of “finger” as apparently understood by most non-anglophone speakers and cultures but that would I think be cognitively strongly dissonant to most anglophones, and the existing exclusive set that is not only cognitively familiar to the anglophone world but that also corresponds to a globally clinically useful and familiar category (including to Dutch orthopods!) … but that is unfortunately dissonant to everybody else, especially when labelled as “finger”.

Leaving aside the one-time cost of standing up the second set, the more interesting questions include whether and in which releases the word “finger” should be offered within synonyms, and how clinicians across all cultures and linguistic backgrounds can be assisted in searching over and using both codesets correctly (ie not picking an exclusive code when the inclusive meaning was intended, and vice versa). A range of technical solutions spring to mind, mainly involving realm language refsets to suppress “finger” descriptions across all inclusive codes in anglophone countries and the opposite everywhere else.

Hi @jrogers and @fhielkema ,

I agree with the discussion so far, but I think if we attempt to represent both definitions in the terminology itself, even using a GCI, we may end up doing a disservice to the end-user community.

An approach that we have not considered, or at least that I have not heard discussed, is to select the most accurate modeling approach based on anatomical references that are considered to be authoritative sources for SNOMED and then supplement with an appropriate refset. Granted, this option adds slightly more maintenance overhead for each monthly release, but the optimization for end-users may make it worth the effort.

This path was taken with the lateralized body structure refset.

One option is that we select to use the exclusive definition and keep the finger and thumb structures and definitions as they stand. We can then create an inclusive supplemental refset definition that can be used by implementors and researchers.

About 10% of the people will complain that the classification isn’t correct and 90% will be sufficiently happy. I am beginning to theorize that when we have questions about grouping concepts, if we can’t come up with a classifiable solution, we need to leverage other features provided by the extensive terminological construct that is SNOMED CT.

The question then becomes, is there a more pragmatic approach that we can take that will ensure the accuracy of the terminology while providing implementors and translators with the tools and groupings that they need?

I am adding the briefing note as presented to this forum post for reference

Briefing note_ Fingers vs. Digits of hand (1).pdf (283.7 KB)

Dear all,

Many thanks for your feedback and raising this clinically important concern. The challenge you’ve identified the gaps between what clinicians document and what our hierarchies support is what drove our extended discussion at the Member Forum, EAG, MAG and TUG groups.

I should be transparent about where my thinking has evolved on the recommended solution. The initial internal recommendation from our Editorial Panel, reflecting the MAG and TUG feedback, favored Option 2c (a hybrid approach where body structures undergo formal inactivation while procedures and findings receive FSN updates). This reflected genuine international support and multiple NRCs clearly stated they need digit-of-hand concepts instead of the current exclusive meaning of finger that creates translation and modeling gaps they struggle with.

However, as Jim and I discussed the practical implementation details after the EAG, a more important concern surfaced: the actual disruption cost of Option 2 may outweigh the modeling purity it gains. Let me explain why Option 1 now appears to be the safer path forward, even though it’s less aligned with what international groups initially requested.

Option 2c requires updating Fully Specified Names across procedure and finding hierarchies—somewhere between 1,000 and 1,400 concepts depending on scope. These FSN changes would reinterpret finger to mean digit-of-hand (inclusive), aligning SNOMED with most international practice. But this semantic shift creates substantial ripple effects. Systems relying on the finger’s historic exclusive meaning could break unexpectedly. National Release Centres that have already translated finger according to the current exclusive definition must now retranslate. Users in clinical systems encounter name changes without sufficient guidance on what changed or why. For English-language users, this represents significant semantic disruption in specialties where the exclusive distinction is still clinically embedded. Even for non-English speakers, while an inclusive definition aligns better with their language, those who’ve completed translations based on the exclusive meaning face substantial rework.

Here’s the fundamental issue: Option 2 does effectively solve the international translation problem by making finger inclusive as it is exactly what MAG and TUG clearly need. But the feedback also revealed something equally important: English-speaking clinicians depend on the exclusive finger interpretation for established workflows and clinical documentation. These are competing preferences and genuine parallel needs. Most international clinical need is an inclusive grouper (digit of hand) for universal applicability. English-language clinicians need the thumb-specific distinction that finger currently provides. Option 2 cannot serve both. If we reinterpret fingers as inclusive, we eliminate the exclusive meaning entirely. We cannot simultaneously serve both needs from a single concept. English-language users requiring exclusive finger meaning would lose that capability. If exclusive-finger concepts are later recreated under a different name that would be unnatural to native English speakers. Option 2 does address international requirements, but only at a cost to existing English-language practice. We haven’t resolved the conflict but chosen one side over the other. Editorial guidance can’t bridge this gap: clinicians trained on the exclusive finger meaning will encounter standards explaining “finger now includes the thumb,”. For clinicians with embedded workflows and decision support built on the exclusive interpretation, the change remains disruptive regardless of how well we document it.

Option 1 offers a different trade-off. We retain the existing 1,400+ finger concepts untouched, no name changes, no backward-compatibility breaks, no retroactive reinterpretation of historical data. This is a major benefit for existing systems, clinical workflows, and stable historical data interpretations. Simultaneously, we add over 1,300 new digit-of-hand concepts that provide comprehensive coverage of all five digits. Yes, this increases terminology size, a potential drawback. But this growth is additive, not destructive. We’re not disrupting what works, we’re adding capability where it’s needed. This approach directly addresses the modeling gaps for concepts such as ‘arthrotomy with drainage of digit of hand’ and ‘bursa of digit of hand’ become codeable, eliminating the need to force thumb into finger hierarchies.

The option 1 is actually a safer option because it respects the reality that SNOMED has decades of installed clinical systems, research datasets, and workflows built around current finger concepts. Clinicians don’t need those concepts reinterpreted. It fills the gaps without retroactive disruption. For countries where “finger” is culturally inclusive, they can map to the new ‘digit of hand’ concepts and hierarchies. Their language stays natural, and they get the grouper concept they need. For clinicians who require the exclusive meaning, it remains available. Both use cases work. Of course, this does not address the unnatural translation of the exclusive meaning of “finger” in SNOMED CT for the countries where “finger” is culturally inclusive. Translation work is still required, but it shifts from destructive rework to constructive addition. You’re creating new translations for ‘digit of hand’ concepts, not retranslating 1,400 existing finger concepts. For example, in Dutch, your clinical practice already treats fingers as inclusive, the new digit of hand hierarchy maps directly to your existing terminology and language remains natural. However, it does not address the translation of exclusive finger as “finger excluding thumb”. If these finger concepts are not needed, they could be excluded from translation. Of course, the decision needs to be made on the basis of the national clinical requirements and regulations.

The shift to recommending Option 1 isn’t abandonment of the international feedback. It’s a careful read of what they actually need versus what we initially assumed would satisfy it. They need digit-of-hand concepts and translation support. They need us to reinterpret ‘finger’. Option 1 delivers the first without imposing the second, and that turns out to be safer and more sustainable.

Please let us know your thoughts on the shift to Option 1.

Hi @ygao For Dutch, we would have to translate the new concepts, because those are the ones needed by clinical practice. I am not looking forward to translating that many new concepts; but I cannot fault your logic. I agree that this appears to be the solution that best supports all the use cases and considerations we have heard.

However, the cost of option 1 is prohibitive. Not just to SNOMED International, but to all NRCs who must translate each new concept. On the bright side, the new concepts will be close copies of existing international concepts. Could we use this change to explore a co-creation approach that relies on automation to minimise the manual effort involved - not just for SNOMED international, but for translating countries too? @kkewley Could the new translation tool be harnessed to automate the translation of these new concepts entirely, provided their original counterpart is already translated?

As we have been aware of the issue for a decade and more, I think we can take our time to work out the most efficient way to handle this major change. @ovage , what is your opinion?

First of all, I appreciate that this discussion is taking place. It is important for all of us doing translations to different languages. It’s not so much about the burden and complexity of translation, but rather of the oddity of the result. In the end, there is a human using SNOMED CT as an interface terminology also.

My viewpoints don’t represent the Translation User Group, I am no longer the chair. As you know very well, there are concerns in the TUG about the acceptability of SNOMED CT when introducing weird or strange phrases such as “finger other than thumb” as translations of 7569003 |Finger structure (body structure)|, 125653000 |Open wound of finger (disorder)|, etc.

At the same time, we have to accept the ontological properties of SNOMED CT, balancing it as an interface and a reference terminology.

My first concern was about the lack of coherency regarding Finger. In Norway, we established a translation pattern reflecting the body structure hierarchy of ‘digit of hand’, ‘finger’ and ‘thumb’. However, when introducing this pattern in other hierarchies, it didn’t add up. There were gaps, and to be honest, I’m quite surprised that this gap hasn’t been identified before.

Filling these gaps is alternative #1, which would result in the need for more translations. I’m not that concerned about this translation burden @fhielkema . AI tools can handle these new pattern-based concepts quite well. Also, it is a good opportunity to clean up some of the content, which would benefit all member countries, including the English-speaking countries.

We had several discussions in Norway before the voting in Member Forum, and we voted for alternative 1.

We were concerned that option 2 (a and b) would “break” the ontology. Also, the phrase “finger other than thumb” is not entirely unknown for clinicians as it is the established translation of S64.4, S65.5 and S67.0 in ICD 10. In Norway, it is quite common that the clinicians do the coding.

I must mention that our voting was contrary to the viewpoint of most of the members of the Translation User Group. It would be wise to discuss the new insights with the group.

As a note, it interesting, however, to observe that among the ICD 11 Foundation extension codes, there is an entity named “Fingers and thumb” with the synonym “Digits of hand”, which seems to correspond to the initial proposal of the TUG. But then, it seems not to be consistent with the rest of Foundation, for example “Crushing injury of thumb” / “Crushing injury of other finger”.